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Topic: Ithaca NID 20 ga 1926, Fair price?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 16
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 01 2012,8:55  Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

Personally, I not sure they really touch.  I have also read that some barrels have been cut, like in this case only an inch, and still touch.  Like was mentioned, the 27" is a clincher for me that they were cut plus the filler being messed up.  

However, I know there are factory records of Elsies, Parkers, and Foxes with odd number length barrels because those companies would do what ever the customer ordered within reason.

Too bad Walt Snyder doesn't post over hear.  He could shed some light I'm sure.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 01 2012,9:34 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE


(patriot @ Mar. 01 2012,8:55)
QUOTE
Personally, I not sure they really touch.  I have also read that some barrels have been cut, like in this case only an inch, and still touch.  Like was mentioned, the 27" is a clincher for me that they were cut plus the filler being messed up.  

However, I know there are factory records of Elsies, Parkers, and Foxes with odd number length barrels because those companies would do what ever the customer ordered within reason.

Too bad Walt Snyder doesn't post over hear.  He could shed some light I'm sure.

I'm betting the barrels were cut an inch, which should have taken out most of the choke. Prolly WHY they were cut. If you are looking for a shooter grouse & woodcock gun is that a problem?
 A good reason to knock $200-300 off the price.

You need one of those CSMC choke guage deals to drop into the bores to check that kinda thing. That was my excuse anyway.
  :D


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 01 2012,10:22 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

Anyhow, I agree with Bryan, the Ithacas are the 'Rodney Dangerfields' of the American Classics; no respect.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 02 2012,9:45 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

Re shells, I would not worry all that much about reloading for an NID.  It is harder to get really low pressures in the 20ga than in the 12ga, but no problem getting down below 9,000 or so, and that's lower than the pressure standard back when that gun was made.  Claybuster also has a relatively new 3/4 oz wad out for the 20ga, which will help you to reduce recoil.

Personally, I like the later NID's (after they got rid of the cocking indicators) better than the early ones, in addition to which they were all 2 3/4" by then.  But you're not going to hurt an NID by shooting sensible 2 3/4" reloads, even if it does have short chambers.  You could also have a gunsmith lengthen the forcing cones a bit, which would likely lower pressures somewhat and maybe improve patterns.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 02 2012,10:20 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE


(Larry Brown @ Mar. 02 2012,6:45)
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Personally, I like the later NID's (after they got rid of the cocking indicators) better than the early ones, in addition to which they were all 2 3/4" by then.  But you're not going to hurt an NID by shooting sensible 2 3/4" reloads, even if it does have short chambers.  You could also have a gunsmith lengthen the forcing cones a bit, which would likely lower pressures somewhat and maybe improve patterns.

I'm not sure if any tests have been made by anyone regarding using 2.75 in 2.5 chambers in a 20ga. I can recall several tests run by someone (published in DGJ years ago) using a 12ga. gun. The results were pretty conclusive in my mind that pressures were increased only a few hundred pounds and therefor safe. I've shot several of my 2.75 reloads in my 2.5 gun. I load them short now but I'm not opposed to this practice. Larry, maybe you know of some data that supports using 2.75 in 2.5 20ga. guns, I'm not aware of any.

I would be very cautious about shooting 2.75 in a 2.5 gun if I were you. Either get low pressure shells in 2.5 or have the chambers lenghtened as suggested. This is something you don't want to experiment with a 20ga. gun. Smaller pipe, higher pressure. JMO.

Jim


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 02 2012,10:34 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

I have measured 20 gauge 2 3/4"shells and when fired only measured 2 5/8"

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 02 2012,1:06 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

Thanks for the input.  I think if I can get this one for $1,000 I will, otherwise I'll keep looking.

Again, thanks and good shooting.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 02 2012,3:25 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE


(patriot @ Mar. 01 2012,10:22)
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Anyhow, I agree with Bryan, the Ithacas are the 'Rodney Dangerfields' of the American Classics; no respect.

Yeah, I agree with you there.
Once you get into the graded NIDs, these are some very nice guns. A friend had what I think was 4E (?) and that was very nice gun. AAA walnut, really nice engraving and finish.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 02 2012,5:43 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE


(elkcaddis @ Mar. 02 2012,10:06)
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Thanks for the input.  I think if I can get this one for $1,000 I will, otherwise I'll keep looking.

Again, thanks and good shooting.

Good luck.

If you reload for it keep the pressure under 10,000 psi. or let Larry load some shells for you and have him test the loads in your gun.  :D

Jim


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 03 2012,8:41 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE


(LostintheOzone @ Mar. 02 2012,10:20)
QUOTE

(Larry Brown @ Mar. 02 2012,6:45)
QUOTE
Personally, I like the later NID's (after they got rid of the cocking indicators) better than the early ones, in addition to which they were all 2 3/4" by then.  But you're not going to hurt an NID by shooting sensible 2 3/4" reloads, even if it does have short chambers.  You could also have a gunsmith lengthen the forcing cones a bit, which would likely lower pressures somewhat and maybe improve patterns.

I'm not sure if any tests have been made by anyone regarding using 2.75 in 2.5 chambers in a 20ga. I can recall several tests run by someone (published in DGJ years ago) using a 12ga. gun. The results were pretty conclusive in my mind that pressures were increased only a few hundred pounds and therefor safe. I've shot several of my 2.75 reloads in my 2.5 gun. I load them short now but I'm not opposed to this practice. Larry, maybe you know of some data that supports using 2.75 in 2.5 20ga. guns, I'm not aware of any.

I would be very cautious about shooting 2.75 in a 2.5 gun if I were you. Either get low pressure shells in 2.5 or have the chambers lenghtened as suggested. This is something you don't want to experiment with a 20ga. gun. Smaller pipe, higher pressure. JMO.

Jim

Lost, I'm not aware of anyone having tested 2 3/4" 20's in a short chambered pressure barrel.  And you are correct that you're dealing with higher pressures in a 20ga.  I definitely would not advise shooting factory 2 3/4" ammo in a short 20, although it's more of an issue in the earlier Flues guns, which were not as strong as the NID.  

Reloads, however . . . it's possible to get down to 8K psi, or very close, with both 3/4 and 7/8 oz reloads.  That gives you a safety margin of at least 2,500 psi compared to the service pressures for which those guns were designed.  And in the 12ga tests, shooting 2 3/4" loads in a 2 1/2" chamber, the typical pressure increase was less than 1,000 psi.  

I would not recommend lengthening the chamber, but I might lengthen the forcing cones.  In Bell's tests, reported in Double Gun Journal, he usually got some pressure reduction just by lengthening the cones.  Might also result in better patterns.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 03 2012,11:44 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE


(Bryan Lee @ Mar. 01 2012,5:07)
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(LostintheOzone @ Mar. 01 2012,4:43)
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$1200 would be a price that a dealer would HOPE to get. It won't be easy to get that much for a 2.5" Ithaca. Those and Le Fevers are pretty much on the bottom of the desirability list as far as American classics go.

Also know that you will have to buy premium low pressure ammo for it at $10 a box.
http://www.rstshells.com/rst_classic_shotshells_shotshells.htm

You could reload it yourself, Ive done it for 2.5" but it's a PIA as you have to cut hulls and 20ga. has high pressure to start with. Not many powder/wad options out there for low pressure. I load for my Elsie but it's 2.75. I wouldn't try it with 2.5.

All of the classics went to 2.75" a few years after yours was built or before. Your's is one of the first NID guns and may have 2.75 chambers as they changed after Oct. of that year. Probably had barrels left over from Flues models. Barrel should be stamped, don't take anyone's word for it.

I'm no expert but I try to keep up on American classics. It's one of my passions. That's an $800 gun in my demented mind.

Jim

While the Blue Book isn't the final authority, I just checked it. You're right Ozone in 80% condition the BB says $850.00.

I'd agree on that price.

I disagree on the Lefever comment, Nitro Specials might be at the bottom of the list, but Lefever made top quality guns. They actually might be my favorite US maker. A midgrade EE Lefever is a phenomenal gun, and they are priced accordingly:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/9703867....PP.htm#

The higher end guns are some of the finest guns in the world, bar none.

http://www.lefevercollectors.com/index.php?p=1_18_Photos

I've been hunting for a high condition mid-grade+ for years.  They don't come along often and you don't see the deals on them that you see for other American makers.


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 Post Number: 27
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 03 2012,1:14 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE


(StormsGSP @ Mar. 03 2012,8:44)
QUOTE
I'd agree on that price.

I disagree on the Lefever comment, Nitro Specials might be at the bottom of the list, but Lefever made top quality guns. They actually might be my favorite US maker. A midgrade EE Lefever is a phenomenal gun, and they are priced accordingly:

I show my ignorance with just about every post I make. There is always someone here that will point that out and that's a good thing for everyone concerned, including me. This place is a gold mine of information.

I don't know much about LeFevers, or Ithacas for that matter. Never owned either. I looked for years for a high condition 20ga. NID and never found one for a good price.

I've only seen a few high grade LeFevers, all in collections. It's my understanding that very few were built after 1916 when Ithaca purchased the company and produced boxlocks (Nitro Special) using the LeFever name. I guess I was thinking about those and not the real deal.

Thanks for the links.

Jim


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 03 2012,7:21 Skip to the previous post in this topic.    QUOTE


(StormsGSP @ Mar. 03 2012,11:44)
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I disagree on the Lefever comment, Nitro Specials might be at the bottom of the list, but Lefever made top quality guns.

The quality of guns made by Lefever has nothing to do with Lefever Nitro Specials.  Lefever was bought out by Ithaca several years before the Nitro Special was introduced.  Other than the name, the Nitro Special has nothing to do with Lefever and everything to do with Ithaca, which was the company that made the Nitros.  I happen to agree that they're very good economy doubles.  It's just that they're not Lefevers.

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