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Question: Do you subtend? :: Total Votes:51
Poll choices Votes Statistics
I have never heard of subtending. 48  [94.12%]
I have subtended. 1  [1.96%]
I subtend on a regular basis. 2  [3.92%]
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Topic: Do you subtend?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 16
popplecop Search for posts by this member.





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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2012,8:51  Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

If you can see their ears they are in range.

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 Post Number: 17
Larry Brown Search for posts by this member.





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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2012,8:56 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

To return to the subject at hand, which has taken several twists and turns:

Roster may have come up with the term "subtending" for the range estimating process he suggests, but he did not invent the process itself.  I find references to it in British shooting literature going back well before he was born.

And I guess, if you stop to think about it, you'd better not be switching back and forth between a sxs and an OU, or any other gun with a "single sighting plane"--because the target will look very different in size relative to one muzzle than to two.


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 Post Number: 18
Bob Frankenfield Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2012,9:48 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

If I'm shooting good, everything looks big.  If I'm shooting lousy, everything looks small.

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Greg Hartman Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2012,10:21 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

Lunacy.  I don't understand how (or why) anyone would want to do that.  Measuring the bird against the width of the muzzle would make me miss every single time, plus the width of the muzzle of a .410 pump is vastly different than a 12 gauge SxS.

Besides, if you can keep your head about you when there is a bird in the air, it's not hard to judge the distance to the bird with fair accuracy.


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 Post Number: 20
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2012,10:22 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE


(Bob Frankenfield @ Feb. 25 2012,9:48)
QUOTE
If I'm shooting good, everything looks big.  If I'm shooting lousy, everything looks small.

Can identify with that, as I've always likened wing shooting to hitting a baseball. When a batter is on, the ball looks like a basketball when it crosses the plate. When he is off, it looks no bigger than a pea, at which point all hand-eye coordination seems to disappear. I most often experience the latter situation.
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 Post Number: 21
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2012,12:52 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

Think there may be some mistaken interpretation going on here.  I think this method is intended to help gauge whether a bird is in range--after which whatever method you use for shooting is to be employed.  

I am quite certain that he is not saying we should look at the barrel while in the act of shooting.  

Remember too, Roster is starting from well tested personal knoweldge that the average hunter can't hit a majority of easy targets at short range, yet routinely take much longer shots at game.   Knowing approximately how far away game is reduces wounding, saves ammo, and can help make you make wiser shooting decisions.
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 Post Number: 22
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2012,2:07 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

I generally lead a bird about twice as much at forty yards compared to twenty yards.

I wish someone made a plastic pheasant for range estimation practice.
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 Post Number: 23
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2012,2:10 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

Is this a method for head shooting pheasants?

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 Post Number: 24
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2012,3:03 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

For years, I shot birds in the butt. Now I focus exclusively on the head. Head shooting sounds like a great name for this method.
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 Post Number: 25
charlo slim Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2012,5:27 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

I don't think that Tom Roster makes claim to have invented subtending, though he certainly makes very effective use of the process in his steel shot clinics.  Fact is that many, many waterfowl hunters have not a clue as to how far they are trying to shoot birds. Which leads to excessive crippling losses of course. If you don't believe it, go to any public waterfowl hunting ground and watch what is happening in terms of shooting ranges being attempted.  Or set up life-sized, anatomically correct "flying" duck and goose decoys at known distances, say 30, 45, and 60 yards, then have a bunch of hunters estimate the distance. Eyeopener for sure. Some  are pretty good at it of course, but most are not.

Don't think I personally would try to subtend on an individual bird and then kill it on the same mount, but it's not all that difficult to subtend a front bird in a passing flock to check range and then kill a tail-end bird in the same flock. Sometimes beginners may go all day and shoot up a box or more of shells, kill no birds or maybe sail one or two, and still have no real idea as to whether they were shooting within or beyond reasonable lethal range capability of their gun/load!! Of course people who have been hunting for a long time, some of them anyway, get very good at judging range -- subtending is just one way to help speed up the learning process.

Range finders provide another way of course (still can't range and kill the same bird though). Decoys or other markers at known range are another, though placing one 40 or 50 yards UP is problematic. I'm not much impressed by methods based on markings, etc, because lighting and weather conditions have a huge effect on what we see.  Any "rule" that works well on a bright, clear day will be way off on a dim, cloudy day.  Heck, I hunted ("guided", actually) on a couple of days this past winter when flat lighting made telling drake and hen mallards apart nearly impossible.  Subtending is not influenced by lighting.

Agreed, subtending would not work at all for someone who is always shifting among different guns.


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 Post Number: 26
Larry Brown Search for posts by this member.





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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2012,7:06 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

Roster has always placed much of his focus on waterfowl shooting, which makes sense because all of his work with steel shot.  Seems to me that subtending makes much more sense with waterfowl (and with driven birds) because they're typically in sight far longer, and generally getting closer rather than farther away, than are upland birds.  

In British shotgun guru Gough Thomas' book, "Shooting Facts & Fancies", he has an excellent illustration of "subtending", using wood pigeons as an example in comparison to the 28" barrels of a 12ga.  Excellent points that it does not work very well if you swap guns around a lot, and it's especially problematic if you vacillate between the .410 and the 12ga.  Even worse between a .410 OU and a 12ga sxs.  But it can be particularly useful where one is most tempted to "sky bust" at birds that are out of range.

In my own case, not being a waterfowler but having some experience shooting driven birds, I always tend to overestimate range when I've been shooting mostly pheasants and all of a sudden I'm looking at a partridge.


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 Post Number: 27
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2012,10:10 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE

Well now.

Not to be flip. But I have subtended on an occasional Friday. I might tonight, even though it is Saturday.


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 Post Number: 28
charlo slim Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2012,10:40 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE


(dvmweb @ Feb. 25 2012,10:10)
QUOTE
Well now.

Not to be flip. But I have subtended on an occasional Friday. I might tonight, even though it is Saturday.

Just don't underestimate the range involved.

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 Post Number: 29
charlo slim Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2012,11:06 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic.   QUOTE


(Larry Brown @ Feb. 25 2012,7:06)
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Roster has always placed much of his focus on waterfowl shooting, which makes sense because all of his work with steel shot.  Seems to me that subtending makes much more sense with waterfowl (and with driven birds) because they're typically in sight far longer, and generally getting closer rather than farther away, than are upland birds.  

In British shotgun guru Gough Thomas' book, "Shooting Facts & Fancies", he has an excellent illustration of "subtending", using wood pigeons as an example in comparison to the 28" barrels of a 12ga.  Excellent points that it does not work very well if you swap guns around a lot, and it's especially problematic if you vacillate between the .410 and the 12ga.  Even worse between a .410 OU and a 12ga sxs.  But it can be particularly useful where one is most tempted to "sky bust" at birds that are out of range.

In my own case, not being a waterfowler but having some experience shooting driven birds, I always tend to overestimate range when I've been shooting mostly pheasants and all of a sudden I'm looking at a partridge.

Agreed, Larry, across the board.  The larger vs smaller bird deal is part of the reason, I think, that so much ridiculously long shooting occurs on geese -- they are just so large that they tend to seem close even when far out of effective shotgun range. When shifting from large Western Canadas in MT to the much smaller Lesser Canadas down here in OK, I will be passing up readily killable birds for awhile till I get things dialed in.

Overhead birds also often seem to be farther away than those at the same distance but closer to ground level.  Could be just from lacking frame of reference I suppose, sortof like we tend to perceive the moon as being much larger near the horizon and much smaller overhead.

Honestly, I've never really thought much about subtending relative to typical upland hunting.


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 Post Number: 30
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2012,3:43 Skip to the previous post in this topic.    QUOTE

I shot my shotgun with one one shut for a long time. I was a terrible shot.

In an attempt to keep both eyes open, I placed a flying dove decoy in my yard. It was terribly difficult to keep both eyes open for a couple of weeks. Finally I realized my shotgun was always pointing to whatever I was staring at. I didn’t need to look at my gun. It became a blur in my peripheral vision.

I make circles around the target to see how the shot picture changes with angle, always focusing on the bird’s head. When I cannot see the bird’s head, I can still determine where the head is and its flight angle by the angle of the decoy. I can do this because I keep the decoy in my yard 365 days a year.

My decoy is on a thirteen foot telescoping pole. If I extend the pole to its maximum height and stand downhill, I can see what the bird looks like when it is in the skeet high house station one position. When I see belly, I switch from the cutting off the bird method to swing through.

I never subtend. I do like using decoys. I have to travel to find birds. Hence, I cannot see birds before the hunt. Using decoys allow me to be ready for that first shot.

Thanks for participating in the poll.
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