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| Post Number: 16
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| Post Number: 17
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jmooney 
Ladies Auxilary Enforcer
Group: 2013 CONTRIBUTING MEMBER
Location: Morrisville, PA
Posts: 12373
Joined: Mar. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 10 2012,10:09 |
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How cool would it be to have an autoloading sxs?
Just thought of that.
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jollysportingbear.tumblr.com
"I’m so glad I live in a world where there are Octobers."
-L. M. Montgomery,
**Post hole free since 2003**
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| Post Number: 18
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trust me
Group: MEMBER
Location: On the Group W bench...in KY
Posts: 3067
Joined: Sep. 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 10 2012,10:12 |
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The best gun is the one you hit with. A Rem 870 Express that you shoot well is far better than the most expensive SxS that you couldn't hit the barn door with.
Get away from the esthetics for a moment and think about why you're actually "out there." Is it to look and feel a certain way, or is it to hunt and kill birds?
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"So there I was, dragging my canoe behind me while cutting a hole through a wall of human flesh."
W.C. Fields
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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| Post Number: 19
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Greg Hartman
Group: 2013 CONTRIBUTING MEMBER
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 10492
Joined: Mar. 2002
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Posted on: Feb. 10 2012,11:38 |
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Which is better - SxS or O/U?
Let me apologize for the length of this epistle, but that is a question that has intrigued me and I've have spent a good bit of time and money trying to answer it for myself.
First, let's start with the idea that we cannot discuss this issue in terms of performance on upland birds, simply because there is no way to objectively quantify that. The performance of a gun on game is anecdotal, not objective - plus very few of us can afford to shoot the thousands of birds in a given year that would be needed to create an objective study. Despite the imprecation for clays shooters to stay away, the fact remains that the ONLY way to objectively answer the question is to look at performance of O/U's and SxS's on targets, lots and lots of targets of varied kinds, over a long period of time with scores carefully recorded.
My odyssey started with a random conversation with the late Michael Macintosh. I made a statement to the effect: "Everybody knows that SXS's are inferior to O/U's." MM paused and asked me how I "knew" this. I responded: "Target shooters use what works. Just look around at the top competitors at any target shoot, trap, skeet or SC - how many SxS's do you see? None, perhaps?" MM went on to explain that O/U's are far more common because they are readily available in every possible target configuration at economical prices; and that's all most shooters these days have been exposed to. Besides, MM explained, almost all SxS's are basically configured as game guns and almost all O/U's are configured as target guns (a true O/U game gun is a VERY rare critter - and so is a SxS configured as a full-race target gun), so you are comparing apples to oranges - of course a target gun is going to do a better on targets, everything else being equal, than a light game gun.
Well, this conversation with MM got me wondering - what if you DO compare apples to apples, by building a true full-race target gun in SxS configuration and then comparing that on a long term objective basis to a full-race target gun in O/U configuration.
So, I did just that - "built" a full-race SxS target gun out of a Mdl 21 with 32" vent rib screw choke bbls, single trigger, pistol grip stock fitted to me, beavertail fore end, 8.5 pound weight, etc. It looked like this when done:
I was comparing my shooting with the Mdl 21 to my shooting with my regular full-race target O/U - a Famars droplock with pistol grip, single trigger, beavertail fore end, 30" vent rib screw choke bbls, 8.5 pound weight, which I had also stocked to fit. That gun looks like this:
For some years I shot both guns extensively at clays. What I discovered after thousands and thousands of targets was that the O/U held a TINY advantage (that showed up mostly on long targets). I going to guess maybe 1% - that's one target out of 100. My scores varied MUCH more on any given day more based on how I felt that day, whether I was "off" or "on" and the like, than they varied as a result the configuration of the target gun being used that day - O/U or SxS. In other words, the performance of a similarly configured SxS and O/U was so close as to be identical for all practical purposes. The only person who might (and I say might) notice a difference would be a very serious target shooter at the highest levels of competition.
Comparing the typical SxS (nearly all are basically game guns) to the typical O/U (nearly all are basically target guns) is a completely invalid exercise, just as the esteemed Mr. Macintosh told me back then. As usual, he was right and I should have saved my time and money.
To answer your question about which gun I use on game - the answer is that my bird guns consist of an O/U, two SxS's and two pumps (don't like autos in the field - feels like cheating) each in a different gauge. I seem to shoot them equally well within the limitations of the gauge and without regard to the configuration of the particular gun. My primary go-to gun is a 20 gauge O/U in a true game gun configuration - not because it is an O/U, but because the 20 gauge for me represents the perfect compromise between a light, slim, easy carrying gun and sufficient killing power and range for 98% of my "wild" bird hunting, east and west.
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It's not just a passtime - it's a way of life!
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| Post Number: 20
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| Post Number: 21
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Papa Mammatus
Group: MEMBER
Location: In The Clouds
Posts: 59
Joined: Nov. 2011
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Posted on: Feb. 10 2012,12:01 |
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Greg, those are beautiful guns. Great info.
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| Post Number: 22
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Laminarman
Group: MEMBER
Location: Peoples Republic of New York: Upstate
Posts: 1214
Joined: Nov. 2010
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Posted on: Feb. 10 2012,12:30 |
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Awesome response Greg, great information. And nice hardware too. I was sure you were going to say the O/U was superior by a margin enough to make the answer "O/U is the clear winner." Glad to see they were pretty much equal. I can see MM's point, there are O/U's everywhere compared to SxS's.
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| Post Number: 23
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GB Jack
Group: 2013 CONTRIBUTING MEMBER
Location: In hunshatts shadow of emotion
Posts: 5626
Joined: Nov. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 10 2012,12:57 |
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(Cold Iron @ Feb. 10 2012,10:50)
QUOTE
(ScottGrush @ Feb. 10 2012,8:15)
QUOTE Put all your worries behind you and buy a Benelli ultralight. The greatest upland gun ever made.  X2 "Just want to get an idea of what people use as their PRIMARY GUN- the one you kill the most birds with" The BUL is an upland killing machine.
So would a 50 cal, that doesn't make it a BIRD gun!
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http://tailfeathersandtrout.blogspot.com/
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| Post Number: 24
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terrym
Group: MEMBER
Location: Bradford, Ontario
Posts: 381
Joined: Feb. 2012
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Posted on: Feb. 10 2012,1:05 |
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I shoot a pair of Citoris right now. The 12 is an Upland Special with straight stock and 24" barrels. Bought is 25 yrs ago when I used to run beagles and hunted snowshoe hare on deep snow mostly. It was normal to be on snowshoes and either shooting off one knee due to crazy thick cover or sticking the barrels through brush to fire a shot. My 20 is also 24" barrelled but has the conventional stock with rounded pistol grip. I have an old beater 20 Laurona SxS 20 that was given to me and love the feel and pointing chahrcteristics of it but its choked wrong and rarely sees daylight. Now that I have "re-Discovered" upland bird hunting and now own a Brittany I am thinking of trading the 20 Citori for a SxS 20 with 26" barrels. The cover I hunt is crazy thick the longer barrels just aren't for me.
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| Post Number: 25
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RUFUS80
Group: MEMBER
Location: The Hoosier State
Posts: 513
Joined: Jan. 2007
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Posted on: Feb. 10 2012,1:34 |
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Greg those are two great looking shotguns. I especially love that Winchester model 21. 
Terrym- why not just have the chokes modified on the laurona instead of buying something else. You said it fits and points right. Just a thought.
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"The gun is the essential link between the man and the kind of sport he pursues. It is not enough that it should be well adapted to one of the other. For the best success, it must be fully adapted to both" - Gough Thomas
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| Post Number: 26
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Cold Iron
Group: MEMBER
Location: SE Mn.
Posts: 436
Joined: Oct. 2007
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Posted on: Feb. 10 2012,2:07 |
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(GB Jack @ Feb. 10 2012,12:57)
QUOTE
(Cold Iron @ Feb. 10 2012,10:50)
QUOTE
(ScottGrush @ Feb. 10 2012,8:15)
QUOTE Put all your worries behind you and buy a Benelli ultralight. The greatest upland gun ever made. X2 "Just want to get an idea of what people use as their PRIMARY GUN- the one you kill the most birds with" The BUL is an upland killing machine. So would a 50 cal, that doesn't make it a BIRD gun!
Speaking of the 50 I was always on ships self defense force and my weapon of choice was an Ithaca 37 with buckshot even though I could have used a 50 freehand. Figured for combat in a structure of steel compartments I’d just crack the hatch, stick the muzzle in and pull the trigger then tell them to bring a mop to clean up. The most effective tool for the task at hand IMO. A shotgun is usually that choice in more cases than not.
Often wonder about all these supposedly traditions. Everyone I knew in the 60’s and 70’s shot an Ithaca 37, or an 870. If you had an A5 you were considered very high end and likely had money. Only the Flatlanders from NYC and Philly had SxS guns. And a very few local Doctors and Lawyers. Don’t recall ever seeing an OU back then except at the skeet range. Just like the lever action rifle has accounted for more venison than any other action (according to the reloading manuals I have) I bet the pump has accounted for more birds harvested than any other. But I have no strong desire to go back and play the trombone on a regular basis. I shoot the OU’s when the BUL misses more than 2 birds in a row and I have to put her in the penalty box to chill out. And I shoot the Italian OU's well (usually) but I shoot the BUL even better by a couple of birds out of a hundred.
So to answer the original question "Just want to get an idea of what people use as their PRIMARY GUN- the one you kill the most birds with" it is absolutely the BUL. For me it is the ultimate bird gun. And that is what it was designed for.
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| Post Number: 27
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martydavis
Group: 2013 CONTRIBUTING MEMBER
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2066
Joined: Sep. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 10 2012,2:33 |
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The few times I tried my SxS I did so bad I never wanted to use it again. Ended up giving it to my youngest son because he COULD hit stuff with it. I use a pump.
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marty davis
central Illinois
Dying is inevitable - It happens to 10 out of 10 humans (Hebrews 9:27) -If you died tonight in your sleep, are you 100% assured you would go to Heaven? See Romans 10:9-10
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| Post Number: 28
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browndog
Group: 2013 CONTRIBUTING MEMBER
Location: Brentwood, NH
Posts: 7082
Joined: Oct. 2003
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Posted on: Feb. 10 2012,2:54 |
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If your mental objective is to get some daylight between the bird and the barrel, then a SxS will give you more lead for the same "daylight" .,.. and if "not enuff lead" is your most common miss ... then SxS should be the weapon for you. I shoot an O/U and make excuses for my misses.
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We've yet to meet a UJ'er or "lurker" and their dog(s) we didn't like.
Paul and Hoby
**********
We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.
Ronald Reagan
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| Post Number: 29
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martydavis
Group: 2013 CONTRIBUTING MEMBER
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2066
Joined: Sep. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 10 2012,3:54 |
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don't know how I did a duplicate post.
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marty davis
central Illinois
Dying is inevitable - It happens to 10 out of 10 humans (Hebrews 9:27) -If you died tonight in your sleep, are you 100% assured you would go to Heaven? See Romans 10:9-10
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| Post Number: 30
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terrym
Group: MEMBER
Location: Bradford, Ontario
Posts: 381
Joined: Feb. 2012
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Posted on: Feb. 10 2012,3:55 |
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Terrym- why not just have the chokes modified on the laurona instead of buying something else. You said it fits and points right. Just a thought.[/quote]
I may try that. It's a F/M right now, I should see if it can be honed out. I doubt it is chromed so it shouldn't be a big deal.
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